Comments on: Interview with Gary Taubes (part 7) http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/ Self-Experimentation, Scientific Method, the Shangri-La Diet, etc. Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:17:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: Mamas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Need Braces « Sacred Appetite http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-354430 Sat, 24 Oct 2009 04:08:44 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-354430 [...] http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/ [...] […] http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/ […]

]]> by: LCforevah http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-106189 Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:32:55 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-106189 A bit of bad news for Taubes as a Dad. I believe the future shape of the jaw and the tooth buds are pretty much laid down in utero. Just he found evidence that shows that overweight mothers with diabetic/insulin resitance problems give birth to children who then develop the same problems more easily, it's his wife who had to give up the sugar and white flour so her infant would have strong jaws and straight teeth. Of course keeping his son away from refuned junk will help his overall development on many other levels anyway. A bit of bad news for Taubes as a Dad. I believe the future shape of the jaw and the tooth buds are pretty much laid down in utero. Just he found evidence that shows that overweight mothers with diabetic/insulin resitance problems give birth to children who then develop the same problems more easily, it’s his wife who had to give up the sugar and white flour so her infant would have strong jaws and straight teeth. Of course keeping his son away from refuned junk will help his overall development on many other levels anyway.

]]> by: Andrew Gelman http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-104913 Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:49:20 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-104913 Seth, Yeah, but that's a much weaker statement. Taubes appears to have lots of data supporting his claims, which is great, but then he makes statements implying that his ideas make sense because of the paleolithic diet. But unless he's talking about climbing trees and chasing down weak gazelles or whatever, his lifestyle does not seem particularly paleolithic. If he wants to cut out white flour and keep burgers, rather than the other way around, that's fine, but I don't see the "paleolithic" argument to be very relevant to that choice. Seth,

Yeah, but that’s a much weaker statement. Taubes appears to have lots of data supporting his claims, which is great, but then he makes statements implying that his ideas make sense because of the paleolithic diet. But unless he’s talking about climbing trees and chasing down weak gazelles or whatever, his lifestyle does not seem particularly paleolithic. If he wants to cut out white flour and keep burgers, rather than the other way around, that’s fine, but I don’t see the “paleolithic” argument to be very relevant to that choice.

]]> by: seth http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-104367 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:54:52 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-104367 Andrew, during Paleolithic times people ate zero refined carbs. No bread, no soft drinks, no pasta, etc. The Atkins diet consists of eliminating these foods (while, yes, leaving cheese and eggs, which were also absent in those days). So you can think of the Atkins Diet as a semi-Paleolithic diet. Andrew, during Paleolithic times people ate zero refined carbs. No bread, no soft drinks, no pasta, etc. The Atkins diet consists of eliminating these foods (while, yes, leaving cheese and eggs, which were also absent in those days). So you can think of the Atkins Diet as a semi-Paleolithic diet.

]]> by: Andrew Gelman http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103799 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:27:20 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103799 Seth, I'm confused. There's all this talk about the paleolithic diet or whatever, but people didn't eat burgers in paleolithic times either. Seth,

I’m confused. There’s all this talk about the paleolithic diet or whatever, but people didn’t eat burgers in paleolithic times either.

]]> by: Seth’s blog » Blog Archive » Interview with Gary Taubes (directory) http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103754 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:39:45 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103754 [...] Interview with Gary Taubes (part 7) [...] […] Interview with Gary Taubes (part 7) […]

]]> by: Varangy http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103734 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:11:45 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103734 Kudos to Seth for giving space to Taubes' ideas. Kudos to Seth for giving space to Taubes’ ideas.

]]> by: Tim Lundeen http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103595 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:09:26 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103595 Great interview series, thanks! The Weston A Price Foundation web site is at http://www.westonaprice.org/ and is a good resource. And I just ordered a copy of Nutrition and Physical Degradation :-) Great interview series, thanks!

The Weston A Price Foundation web site is at http://www.westonaprice.org/ and is a good resource.

And I just ordered a copy of Nutrition and Physical Degradation :-)

]]> by: Lancaster http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103591 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:55:36 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103591 No one argues that low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets don't "work." Only that they require great discipline to be effective. In large parts of the world, this discipline continues to be supplied by scarcity and work. In economic terms, the steep marginal costs in time, money and labor of each additional calorie. That marginal cost in the U.S. is the lowest in history--close to zero--which is why it is so profitable to "supersize." However, the modern high-carb, high-calorie diet is a quirk created only in the last century or so. Prior to the mechanization of agriculture, processing grains into food took enormous amounts of time and labor. Grains stores had to be rationed or people starved. One hard drought and you were all dead. Even avid gardeners don't plant rice or wheat as a hobby. People plant corn as a hobby, but not to eat as corn meal. (Modern sweet corn is organic candy.) People bake bread, but few in the first world grind flour from wheat and bake a half-dozen (big) loaves a week (like my parents did, though they did use an electric grinder). Because it's hard, time-consuming work. Especially without the electric grinder. I believe the hundred-thousand years of human evolution prior to the agricultural revolution programmed a simple instruction into the metabolism: "If you encounter a carbohydrate surplus, rather than letting it go to waste, chow down and convert into fat, because it comes dear and won't last." No one argues that low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets don’t “work.” Only that they require great discipline to be effective. In large parts of the world, this discipline continues to be supplied by scarcity and work. In economic terms, the steep marginal costs in time, money and labor of each additional calorie.

That marginal cost in the U.S. is the lowest in history–close to zero–which is why it is so profitable to “supersize.”

However, the modern high-carb, high-calorie diet is a quirk created only in the last century or so. Prior to the mechanization of agriculture, processing grains into food took enormous amounts of time and labor. Grains stores had to be rationed or people starved. One hard drought and you were all dead.

Even avid gardeners don’t plant rice or wheat as a hobby. People plant corn as a hobby, but not to eat as corn meal. (Modern sweet corn is organic candy.) People bake bread, but few in the first world grind flour from wheat and bake a half-dozen (big) loaves a week (like my parents did, though they did use an electric grinder).

Because it’s hard, time-consuming work. Especially without the electric grinder.

I believe the hundred-thousand years of human evolution prior to the agricultural revolution programmed a simple instruction into the metabolism: “If you encounter a carbohydrate surplus, rather than letting it go to waste, chow down and convert into fat, because it comes dear and won’t last.”

]]> by: taubes http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103561 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:40:39 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/01/10/interview-with-gary-taubes-part-7/#comment-103561 Dennis, To echo several other comments, Taubes (again speaking pretentiously in the third person to identify the author) thinks you'd benefit by reading the book. Taubes is always specific about the type of carbohydrate he's discussing -- often to the point of slowing the narrative to a crawl -- because such specificity, as Dennis notes, is critical to understanding what might be happening in these populations. That said, the argument is that the quality and the quantity of the carbohydrates have to be taken into account (which you would know if you read the book.) as well as the time that a population has had to adjust to carbohydrates in new forms. It could be true that the difference between the two Pima population is that the Mexican Pima eat less animal fat, more complex carbohydrates and expend more energy, as the NIH report suggests. It could be true that the relevant factors are that they consume far less sugar, and less refined easily-digestible carbs, in which case any differences in animal fat consumption and physical activity would be canards. This is why observational studies are so difficult to interpret. They don't tell you what factors cause the difference in disease rates, only what factors differ between the populations. And if the researchers have blinders on, as the NIH researchers in this case did, they don't even tell you all of those. Only those that the researchers chose to look at the time. My advise: read book first, rain on parade second. Dennis,
To echo several other comments, Taubes (again speaking pretentiously in the third person to identify the author) thinks you’d benefit by reading the book. Taubes is always specific about the type of carbohydrate he’s discussing — often to the point of slowing the narrative to a crawl — because such specificity, as Dennis notes, is critical to understanding what might be happening in these populations.
That said, the argument is that the quality and the quantity of the carbohydrates have to be taken into account (which you would know if you read the book.) as well as the time that a population has had to adjust to carbohydrates in new forms. It could be true that the difference between the two Pima population is that the Mexican Pima eat less animal fat, more complex carbohydrates and expend more energy, as the NIH report suggests. It could be true that the relevant factors are that they consume far less sugar, and less refined easily-digestible carbs, in which case any differences in animal fat consumption and physical activity would be canards. This is why observational studies are so difficult to interpret. They don’t tell you what factors cause the difference in disease rates, only what factors differ between the populations. And if the researchers have blinders on, as the NIH researchers in this case did, they don’t even tell you all of those. Only those that the researchers chose to look at the time.
My advise: read book first, rain on parade second.

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