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	<title>Comments on: Vaccine Safety: A Debate</title>
	<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/</link>
	<description>Self-Experimentation, Scientific Method, the Shangri-La Diet, etc.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: bfg</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-264324</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-264324</guid>
					<description>Doctors don't even know what they are injecting into people. All the ingredients of vaccines do not appear on vaccine package inserts. Vaccines are not food and is not subject to different labelling laws than food is. This is called trade secret protection. Why is this a problem? An example: Peanut oil can be used as an ingredient in the vaccine adjuvant and does not have to appear on the label.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doctors don&#8217;t even know what they are injecting into people. All the ingredients of vaccines do not appear on vaccine package inserts. Vaccines are not food and is not subject to different labelling laws than food is. This is called trade secret protection. Why is this a problem? An example: Peanut oil can be used as an ingredient in the vaccine adjuvant and does not have to appear on the label.
</p>
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		<title>by: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-260964</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 03:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-260964</guid>
					<description>I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.


Sharon

http//www.autoloans101.info</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don&#8217;t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.</p>
<p>Sharon</p>
<p>http//www.autoloans101.info
</p>
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		<title>by: Cam</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-259062</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-259062</guid>
					<description>Far from perfect but better than idle speculation about theoretical and unproven mechanisms...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Far from perfect but better than idle speculation about theoretical and unproven mechanisms&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258554</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258554</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;This sort of open discussion is so helpful it should be standard scientific practice: allow your research to be commented on by anyone for anyone to read.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a href="http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2005/06/diet-soda-study-results-are-absolutely.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Sometimes this could be counterproductive&lt;/a&gt;, but still, it's a good point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This sort of open discussion is so helpful it should be standard scientific practice: allow your research to be commented on by anyone for anyone to read.</i></p>
<p><a href="http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2005/06/diet-soda-study-results-are-absolutely.html" rel="nofollow">Sometimes this could be counterproductive</a>, but still, it&#8217;s a good point.
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		<title>by: pd3</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258457</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258457</guid>
					<description>. . . . early church . .  .bible. . . . wait, huhh???


I've heard this one before -- - - - transmitted even by religion professors.  There is more to the story.  Oral tradition was a central part of Jewish culture and the way teachings were passed on from century to century.   Then came christ, then came the letters of St. Paul, then came various gospel accounts, then came the bible----along side that oral tradition that had existed forever.  These bibles could be reproduced only through painstaking word by word transcription. And that caused just a few bibles.  A problem which was exacerbated by the generally low levels of literacy.  Moreover, the world's first "internets" a.k.a the printing press, was used to publish the bible---sparking the widespread distribution of the bible and, of course, literacy and other books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>. . . . early church . .  .bible. . . . wait, huhh???</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard this one before &#8212; - - - transmitted even by religion professors.  There is more to the story.  Oral tradition was a central part of Jewish culture and the way teachings were passed on from century to century.   Then came christ, then came the letters of St. Paul, then came various gospel accounts, then came the bible&#8212;-along side that oral tradition that had existed forever.  These bibles could be reproduced only through painstaking word by word transcription. And that caused just a few bibles.  A problem which was exacerbated by the generally low levels of literacy.  Moreover, the world&#8217;s first &#8220;internets&#8221; a.k.a the printing press, was used to publish the bible&#8212;sparking the widespread distribution of the bible and, of course, literacy and other books.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258314</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258314</guid>
					<description>If you get a mob of people looking in excruciating detail at anything they can come up with infinite amounts of "evidence." Look at the 9-11 "truthers," for instance. The medical establishment takes a more 50,000-foot view, and that's the way to go, I think.

Are there any psycholigists who study conspiracy buffs? To me there seem to be common qualities (but my interest is not great enough that care to try to categorize them myself). My gut feeling is that the anti-vaccine crowd has a lot in common with Kennedy assisination investigators, as well as the followers of this guy:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you get a mob of people looking in excruciating detail at anything they can come up with infinite amounts of &#8220;evidence.&#8221; Look at the 9-11 &#8220;truthers,&#8221; for instance. The medical establishment takes a more 50,000-foot view, and that&#8217;s the way to go, I think.</p>
<p>Are there any psycholigists who study conspiracy buffs? To me there seem to be common qualities (but my interest is not great enough that care to try to categorize them myself). My gut feeling is that the anti-vaccine crowd has a lot in common with Kennedy assisination investigators, as well as the followers of this guy:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.enterprisemission.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.enterprisemission.com/</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: seth</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258217</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258217</guid>
					<description>Yes, unlike my surgeon, Offit and Moser give citations. The similarity is the overstatement. Offit and Moser claim to be giving a fair description -- or at least that should be the purpose of all Pediatrics book reviews -- when in fact it is an attack (less valuable) that can't be trusted to tell both sides. There is nothing interesting about such attacks or their one-sidedness; I only mentioned it to introduce the comments, which are interesting. But I agree with you -- my post seems to imply that Offit and Moser don't have citations, which is wrong. I have corrected the post.

Offit is getting in the way of better decisions by presenting an attack as a fair description. And, as an attack, it is a joke. "Sears never discusses the fact that mercury is present on the earth's surface," Offit and Moser write.

Cam, large epidemiological studies are far from perfect. Gary Taubes wrote an article in the NY Times Sunday magazine about some of their problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, unlike my surgeon, Offit and Moser give citations. The similarity is the overstatement. Offit and Moser claim to be giving a fair description &#8212; or at least that should be the purpose of all Pediatrics book reviews &#8212; when in fact it is an attack (less valuable) that can&#8217;t be trusted to tell both sides. There is nothing interesting about such attacks or their one-sidedness; I only mentioned it to introduce the comments, which are interesting. But I agree with you &#8212; my post seems to imply that Offit and Moser don&#8217;t have citations, which is wrong. I have corrected the post.</p>
<p>Offit is getting in the way of better decisions by presenting an attack as a fair description. And, as an attack, it is a joke. &#8220;Sears never discusses the fact that mercury is present on the earth&#8217;s surface,&#8221; Offit and Moser write.</p>
<p>Cam, large epidemiological studies are far from perfect. Gary Taubes wrote an article in the NY Times Sunday magazine about some of their problems.
</p>
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		<title>by: Cam</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258214</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258214</guid>
					<description>NE1, well said. Pretty much the only things that need to be adding: 

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45360000/gif/_45360950_measles_cases_gr_226.gif

"Take a bow, morons." -Ben Goldacre

It is also worth mentioning that the 'parents of vaccine injured children' in the comments section of the paediatrics article, on the whole, have very little evidence for the title they claim. If there is no statistical link shown in large epidemiological studies between the harm they/their kids suffered and the vaccine they received, the best they can do is post hoc ergo procter hoc. And thar be dragons. If we ran things that way... there would be little point in doing science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NE1, well said. Pretty much the only things that need to be adding: </p>
<p><a href="http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45360000/gif/_45360950_measles_cases_gr_226.gif" rel="nofollow">http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45360000/gif/_45360950_measles_cases_gr_226.gif</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Take a bow, morons.&#8221; -Ben Goldacre</p>
<p>It is also worth mentioning that the &#8216;parents of vaccine injured children&#8217; in the comments section of the paediatrics article, on the whole, have very little evidence for the title they claim. If there is no statistical link shown in large epidemiological studies between the harm they/their kids suffered and the vaccine they received, the best they can do is post hoc ergo procter hoc. And thar be dragons. If we ran things that way&#8230; there would be little point in doing science.
</p>
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		<title>by: NE1</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258164</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/01/11/vaccine-safety-a-debate/#comment-258164</guid>
					<description>Offit and Moser spend their 8 pages pointing out misinformation provided by Dr. Sears' book, when he claims to be acting as a neutral source.  Nearly every paragraph has a citation.  For example, when addressing Dr. Sears' implication that cow-derived vaccines could be a source of mad cow disease, he references a study in the UK showing there was no risk.  One not similarly justified paragraph, for example, notes that Dr. Sears uses a fallacy of personal anecdotes in saying he hasn't seen many meningitis infections around.  Unbelievable.  There are more than 30 references.  

Their complaint is mostly that Dr. Sears is misinforming his readers.  You are right that there is no new information.  In particular though, the highlighted comments do nothing to refute the critique.  The only place where the critique is inadequate is in quantifying the harm done by this alternative schedule.  They do a poor job of putting a number on it, simply noting several diseases, say where waiting until 5 for influenza vaccine, has led to the hospitalization of X young children (ie, where such studies exist).

But yes, they provide evidence against not just his misdirections and falsehoods, but concerning the thesis of the book.  The justifictions for not getting them, and even for simply delaying or spacing them are attacked.  With references.

I don't see where Dr. Offit is getting in the way of better decisions.  He has identified a book full of misinformation, one that gives phantom support to anti-vaxxers.  It actually appears that the fulltext has been made public. If any readers are interested in the references, my experience has been that the authors are always willing to send a pdf copy to polite emailers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Offit and Moser spend their 8 pages pointing out misinformation provided by Dr. Sears&#8217; book, when he claims to be acting as a neutral source.  Nearly every paragraph has a citation.  For example, when addressing Dr. Sears&#8217; implication that cow-derived vaccines could be a source of mad cow disease, he references a study in the UK showing there was no risk.  One not similarly justified paragraph, for example, notes that Dr. Sears uses a fallacy of personal anecdotes in saying he hasn&#8217;t seen many meningitis infections around.  Unbelievable.  There are more than 30 references.  </p>
<p>Their complaint is mostly that Dr. Sears is misinforming his readers.  You are right that there is no new information.  In particular though, the highlighted comments do nothing to refute the critique.  The only place where the critique is inadequate is in quantifying the harm done by this alternative schedule.  They do a poor job of putting a number on it, simply noting several diseases, say where waiting until 5 for influenza vaccine, has led to the hospitalization of X young children (ie, where such studies exist).</p>
<p>But yes, they provide evidence against not just his misdirections and falsehoods, but concerning the thesis of the book.  The justifictions for not getting them, and even for simply delaying or spacing them are attacked.  With references.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see where Dr. Offit is getting in the way of better decisions.  He has identified a book full of misinformation, one that gives phantom support to anti-vaxxers.  It actually appears that the fulltext has been made public. If any readers are interested in the references, my experience has been that the authors are always willing to send a pdf copy to polite emailers.
</p>
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