Comments on: Human Evolution: The Curious Case of To Have http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/ Self-Experimentation, Scientific Method, the Shangri-La Diet, etc. Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:00:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: Sophie Jaworsy http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-356752 Sat, 31 Oct 2009 00:41:41 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-356752 I love how your statements are shown. Lovely! Sincerily, Sophie Jaworsky I love how your statements are shown. Lovely!

Sincerily,
Sophie Jaworsky

]]> by: Sol http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-342484 Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:47:11 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-342484 very interesting. This topic fascinates me: I love observing how my 2 year old son acquires language and I have noticed that possession for him is of utter importance. Still it was a sad day for me when he learned to say: "mine"... very interesting. This topic fascinates me: I love observing how my 2 year old son acquires language and I have noticed that possession for him is of utter importance. Still it was a sad day for me when he learned to say: “mine”…

]]> by: seth http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-302313 Wed, 13 May 2009 02:03:38 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-302313 Thanks, Evan. That's brilliant. Thanks, Evan. That’s brilliant.

]]> by: evan gardner http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-302307 Wed, 13 May 2009 01:38:04 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-302307 The first step of the game could very well be called "I want your keys". But the game is called "where are your keys?" because that simple question is the next step or level in fluency progressing from "what" and "who" and "which" questions to "where" and "when" and "how" questions. A fast fluency level probing question in any language is "Where are your keys?" By the answer I know almost exactly how fluent a person is. The hand signs are important to the speed of language transition. If a student is gesturing "yes" but is voicing "no" then I know two things... First, that the student isn't sure of the correct language. Second, I know that the student means what they are signing and not what is coming out of their mouth. It is a strange phenomenon but almost 100% accurate. We call this technique "your lips say no but your body says yes." So watch for the persons body language, not their verbal language... if you know how to read body language (sign language) you will gather more of the true communication and less of the noise. The first step of the game could very well be called “I want your keys”. But the game is called “where are your keys?” because that simple question is the next step or level in fluency progressing from “what” and “who” and “which” questions to “where” and “when” and “how” questions. A fast fluency level probing question in any language is “Where are your keys?” By the answer I know almost exactly how fluent a person is.

The hand signs are important to the speed of language transition. If a student is gesturing “yes” but is voicing “no” then I know two things… First, that the student isn’t sure of the correct language. Second, I know that the student means what they are signing and not what is coming out of their mouth. It is a strange phenomenon but almost 100% accurate. We call this technique “your lips say no but your body says yes.” So watch for the persons body language, not their verbal language… if you know how to read body language (sign language) you will gather more of the true communication and less of the noise.

]]> by: seth http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-295397 Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:08:04 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-295397 Thanks, Evan, that's very interesting. I suppose the game should be called "I Want Your Keys". Animals have a sense of possession. If you try to take a dog's food away from it it will bite you. why the hand signs? where do they come in? Thanks, Evan, that’s very interesting. I suppose the game should be called “I Want Your Keys”. Animals have a sense of possession. If you try to take a dog’s food away from it it will bite you.

why the hand signs? where do they come in?

]]> by: evan gardner http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-295386 Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:27:06 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-295386 Where Are Your Keys? only has a few converts because I have only told a few people about it. It is a game that I made up by watching how the most effective teachers teach. The subject matter is not that important. The important thing is that certain learning/teaching techniques work, so why not use the most effective techniques as much of the time as possible... and why not train the students to use the same techniques on the teacher not only to more effectively “fish” for the target information but to simultaneously show the teacher their (the student’s) current level of mastery both in the target subject as well as the teaching methodology. In that way you train fluent students who are at the same time teachers in training. That is the quick answer of Where Are Your Keys? As to the learning of a language... SPEED is the most important uniting concept. 1. Speed to acquire the target information ( a new language), 2. Speed to acquire faster more effective learning tools to exponentially increase the learning itself. If you are going to learn a language then learn it as fast as possible. In order the learning and teaching of languages should proceed in this order... Limit the number of nouns. 10 nouns should teach you any language. (choose your nouns well) Agree on hand signs for each of the nouns. Agree on hand signs for the following words in this order. ( I use American Sign Language (ASL) and Pigeon Signed English (PSE) because you might as well learn two languages at the same time. Give each participant an object... This object or prop from the 10 nouns is now that persons (ownership). I, you, he, she, it, we, you all, they mine, yours, his, hers, its, ours, your alls, theirs want, have, give, take I want your rock. you want my food? you want me give you my food? then you give me your rock. If this is the fastest way to learn an language they why wouldn’t it be the foundation, the origin, the “needs gap” solution to all our problems? I want what you have! Small kids begin to practice their understanding of abstract language very early. They hold up and object (usually that is clearly NOT theirs) and ask “MINE?” This question is usually linked to an object that they want or at least like. Origin of language? At least it is the origin of each persons’ relationship with language. If you are in a language class of any kind and they do not cover “want, have, give, take” in the first few classes (some languages are harder to deal with than others and need some set up to get to this point) either ask or leave and find someone else who will tell you. Then go back to class and try to talk the teacher out of items that are “HIS” or “HERS” You may have to trade something of “YOURS” Where Are Your Keys? only has a few converts because I have only told a few people about it. It is a game that I made up by watching how the most effective teachers teach. The subject matter is not that important. The important thing is that certain learning/teaching techniques work, so why not use the most effective techniques as much of the time as possible… and why not train the students to use the same techniques on the teacher not only to more effectively “fish” for the target information but to simultaneously show the teacher their (the student’s) current level of mastery both in the target subject as well as the teaching methodology. In that way you train fluent students who are at the same time teachers in training.

That is the quick answer of Where Are Your Keys?

As to the learning of a language… SPEED is the most important uniting concept.

1. Speed to acquire the target information ( a new language),

2. Speed to acquire faster more effective learning tools to exponentially increase the learning itself.

If you are going to learn a language then learn it as fast as possible.

In order the learning and teaching of languages should proceed in this order…

Limit the number of nouns. 10 nouns should teach you any language.
(choose your nouns well)
Agree on hand signs for each of the nouns.
Agree on hand signs for the following words in this order. ( I use American Sign Language (ASL) and Pigeon Signed English (PSE) because you might as well learn two languages at the same time.

Give each participant an object…
This object or prop from the 10 nouns is now that persons (ownership).

I, you, he, she, it, we, you all, they
mine, yours, his, hers, its, ours, your alls, theirs

want, have, give, take

I want your rock.

you want my food?

you want me give you my food? then you give me your rock.

If this is the fastest way to learn an language they why wouldn’t it be the foundation, the origin, the “needs gap” solution to all our problems?

I want what you have!

Small kids begin to practice their understanding of abstract language very early. They hold up and object (usually that is clearly NOT theirs) and ask “MINE?”

This question is usually linked to an object that they want or at least like.

Origin of language?

At least it is the origin of each persons’ relationship with language.

If you are in a language class of any kind and they do not cover “want, have, give, take” in the first few classes (some languages are harder to deal with than others and need some set up to get to this point) either ask or leave and find someone else who will tell you. Then go back to class and try to talk the teacher out of items that are “HIS” or “HERS” You may have to trade something of “YOURS”

]]> by: Duncan http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-289058 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:15:50 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-289058 This reminds me of the language-learning game "Where Are Your Keys?" devised by Evan Gardner. As I understand it, the language learner has to use signing and the objects to hand to get from the teacher how to name things and talk about their ownership and possession (hence the game's name). One of the first challenges is to persuade the teacher to hand over (or swap) something of his. Gardner claims this play makes for very rapid language acquisition, which seems to chime with your theory. "Where Are Your Keys?" sounds fascinating but seems to have only a very few converts. The only information I have about it is from the podcast below: http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2009/03/04/episode-23-where-are-your-keys-an-interview-with-evan-gardner/ This reminds me of the language-learning game “Where Are Your Keys?” devised by Evan Gardner. As I understand it, the language learner has to use signing and the objects to hand to get from the teacher how to name things and talk about their ownership and possession (hence the game’s name). One of the first challenges is to persuade the teacher to hand over (or swap) something of his.
Gardner claims this play makes for very rapid language acquisition, which seems to chime with your theory.
“Where Are Your Keys?” sounds fascinating but seems to have only a very few converts. The only information I have about it is from the podcast below:
http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2009/03/04/episode-23-where-are-your-keys-an-interview-with-evan-gardner/

]]> by: seth http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-289049 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:30:53 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-289049 "Specialization is a very late, perhaps even civilized development." Hmm. What do you mean by "very late"? And how do you know? I'm not saying that "a dozen defining differences arose spontaneously at the same time." I'm saying, and apparently you agree, that they combine to make a coherent story. “Specialization is a very late, perhaps even civilized development.” Hmm. What do you mean by “very late”? And how do you know?

I’m not saying that “a dozen defining differences arose spontaneously at the same time.” I’m saying, and apparently you agree, that they combine to make a coherent story.

]]> by: Nathan Myers http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-288886 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 03:49:15 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-288886 I've read some of the pages you linked. Specialization is a very late, perhaps even civilized development. Our own recent ancestors, almost in living memory, spun, wove, and sewed their own clothes. Ötzi the Iceman, 5300 years ago, made his own arrows and participated directly in smelting copper, yet roamed the hills like a shepherd. You have to go back to <i>Homo erectus</i> -- more than a million years -- to discover what differences set humanity on its exceptional course, and then somehow distinguish those from others that arose <i>because</i> we were different. If <i>H. erectus</i> had speech, then speech happened far too long ago to relate to any detail in present human behavior. If speech came later, then it's a downline consequence of human exceptionalism. Anyway, it's absurd to conjecture that a dozen defining differences arose spontaneously at the same time. One or two distinguished us, and the rest are consequences or incidentals. Speech cannot be among the one or two, because the rest (e.g. upright posture) cannot be consequents of it. American libertarians insist that free markets are not an invention, but arise spontaneously as a necessary consequence of natural laws. You're drifting dangerously close to their orbit. Yes, it's interesting that commerce is an example of an activity that can make use of subgrammatical language, but that's no basis for a theory of language origin. I’ve read some of the pages you linked. Specialization is a very late, perhaps even civilized development. Our own recent ancestors, almost in living memory, spun, wove, and sewed their own clothes. Ötzi the Iceman, 5300 years ago, made his own arrows and participated directly in smelting copper, yet roamed the hills like a shepherd.

You have to go back to Homo erectus — more than a million years — to discover what differences set humanity on its exceptional course, and then somehow distinguish those from others that arose because we were different. If H. erectus had speech, then speech happened far too long ago to relate to any detail in present human behavior. If speech came later, then it’s a downline consequence of human exceptionalism.

Anyway, it’s absurd to conjecture that a dozen defining differences arose spontaneously at the same time. One or two distinguished us, and the rest are consequences or incidentals. Speech cannot be among the one or two, because the rest (e.g. upright posture) cannot be consequents of it.

American libertarians insist that free markets are not an invention, but arise spontaneously as a necessary consequence of natural laws. You’re drifting dangerously close to their orbit.

Yes, it’s interesting that commerce is an example of an activity that can make use of subgrammatical language, but that’s no basis for a theory of language origin.

]]> by: seth http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-288862 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 01:56:11 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/04/03/human-evolution-the-curious-case-of-to-have/#comment-288862 Nathan, you can find a directory of the extra-linguistic data here: http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/category/human-evolution/my-theory-of-human-evolution-directory/ "It's not subject to any sort of verification." I think you're overlooking something. There's a principle of inference: If two rare events might have the same cause, they probably do. Lightning doesn't strike twice in one place for different reasons. Humans differ in a dozen different ways from all other species. In other words, ten thousand species, including our closest relatives, are one way; humans are another way. Language is just one example of human exceptionalism. The dozen different ways that humans differ from all other animals, if they might have the same explanation, they probably do have the same explanation. So the explanation for the origin of language should be consistent, if possible, with the explanation of the many other ways humans differ. That's a test. Nathan, you can find a directory of the extra-linguistic data here:

http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/category/human-evolution/my-theory-of-human-evolution-directory/

“It’s not subject to any sort of verification.” I think you’re overlooking something. There’s a principle of inference: If two rare events might have the same cause, they probably do. Lightning doesn’t strike twice in one place for different reasons. Humans differ in a dozen different ways from all other species. In other words, ten thousand species, including our closest relatives, are one way; humans are another way. Language is just one example of human exceptionalism. The dozen different ways that humans differ from all other animals, if they might have the same explanation, they probably do have the same explanation. So the explanation for the origin of language should be consistent, if possible, with the explanation of the many other ways humans differ. That’s a test.

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