<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.0.7" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Campaign Against Medical Hypotheses</title>
	<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/</link>
	<description>Self-Experimentation, Scientific Method, the Shangri-La Diet, etc.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: Mac</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355890</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355890</guid>
					<description>Seth,

Sorry I was unclear in my question.  The question is about regimens and treatments in general, not just probiotics.  The variance of responses around the mean is obviously bigger than zero.  The bigger it is, the less relevant are "generally accepted practices."  For some treatments, the effect on say 60% of the population could be positive (to various degrees), the effect on 20% could be zero, and the effect on 20% could be negative.  Obviously this variance is different for different treatments.  I was just wondering how to think about this phenomenon and its implications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth,</p>
<p>Sorry I was unclear in my question.  The question is about regimens and treatments in general, not just probiotics.  The variance of responses around the mean is obviously bigger than zero.  The bigger it is, the less relevant are &#8220;generally accepted practices.&#8221;  For some treatments, the effect on say 60% of the population could be positive (to various degrees), the effect on 20% could be zero, and the effect on 20% could be negative.  Obviously this variance is different for different treatments.  I was just wondering how to think about this phenomenon and its implications.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Tom in TX</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355776</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355776</guid>
					<description>@Nathan: I read about Duesberg years ago, but did not keep up with the debate. What is the best refutation of his view of AIDS?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Nathan: I read about Duesberg years ago, but did not keep up with the debate. What is the best refutation of his view of AIDS?
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: seth</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355706</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355706</guid>
					<description>Well, I guess we agree that it is intemperate to try to get a journal abolished because it published a paper you disagree with.

Chandra's research was not in "an obscure area". One thing he studied was how old people can avoid memory loss. His work on that topic was covered in the New York Times -- taken completely seriously by the Times. Another area in which Chandra worked was what to feed babies. His work was taken entirely seriously by Nestle executives and many other people. His anti-breast-milk (fabricated) results may have harmed thousands if not millions of babies. Every dollar he got in grant money -- and he got millions -- harmed the scientists who therefore failed to get that money. By "&gt;99% of the world believed Chandra" I didn't mean  &gt;99% of the world had heard of him. (I wish.) I meant &gt;99% of those who encountered his work believed it.

I don't remember saying he got away with it because he worked in an area where no one bothered to check. People did check -- and got different results. The politics of science is why he got away with it -- the price of pointing it out was too high. It was because his work wasn't obscure that he got caught: It reached the notice of two people -- Saul and me -- who were outside his sphere of influence.

Yeah, fury at holocaust deniers surely has something to do with revenge, as you say. (The more polite term for revenge is &lt;em&gt;justice&lt;/em&gt;.) You want the killers to be named as killers; anything that gets in the way of that is infuriating. Fine. Human nature, I agree. But &lt;strong&gt;genocide &lt;/strong&gt;has a large revenge component as well, as Amy Chua has shown in &lt;em&gt;World on Fire&lt;/em&gt;. That's  my point: You become what you say you are against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I guess we agree that it is intemperate to try to get a journal abolished because it published a paper you disagree with.</p>
<p>Chandra&#8217;s research was not in &#8220;an obscure area&#8221;. One thing he studied was how old people can avoid memory loss. His work on that topic was covered in the New York Times &#8212; taken completely seriously by the Times. Another area in which Chandra worked was what to feed babies. His work was taken entirely seriously by Nestle executives and many other people. His anti-breast-milk (fabricated) results may have harmed thousands if not millions of babies. Every dollar he got in grant money &#8212; and he got millions &#8212; harmed the scientists who therefore failed to get that money. By &#8220;>99% of the world believed Chandra&#8221; I didn&#8217;t mean  >99% of the world had heard of him. (I wish.) I meant >99% of those who encountered his work believed it.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember saying he got away with it because he worked in an area where no one bothered to check. People did check &#8212; and got different results. The politics of science is why he got away with it &#8212; the price of pointing it out was too high. It was because his work wasn&#8217;t obscure that he got caught: It reached the notice of two people &#8212; Saul and me &#8212; who were outside his sphere of influence.</p>
<p>Yeah, fury at holocaust deniers surely has something to do with revenge, as you say. (The more polite term for revenge is <em>justice</em>.) You want the killers to be named as killers; anything that gets in the way of that is infuriating. Fine. Human nature, I agree. But <strong>genocide </strong>has a large revenge component as well, as Amy Chua has shown in <em>World on Fire</em>. That&#8217;s  my point: You become what you say you are against.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Andrew Gelman</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355685</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355685</guid>
					<description>You write, "&#62;99% of the world believed Chandra."  Actually, I think we can be pretty sure that &#62;99% of the world has never heard of Chandra or his research.  As you discussed in your debunking of Chandra, one reason for his success is that he worked in an obscure area that nobody bothered to check.

In contrast, genocide remains a live issue, and a big rhetorical strategy of mass murderers is to deny that they've done it, or to claim that they've done it in self-defense.  So fighting false historical revisionism is a good thing to do, I'd say.  And, of course people get "really really upset" by Holocaust deniers:  to have your relatives killed, and then have people trying to get their killers off the hook, yes, that's horrible.

Regarding the HIV/Aids thing:  Duesberg's writings give me the impression that he enjoys pissing people off.  I'm not surprised that, yes, he succeeds at this task.  I don't think that people responding, perhaps intemperately, to a provocation is comparable to the flinging of racial slurs at people who are just minding their own business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You write, &#8220;&gt;99% of the world believed Chandra.&#8221;  Actually, I think we can be pretty sure that &gt;99% of the world has never heard of Chandra or his research.  As you discussed in your debunking of Chandra, one reason for his success is that he worked in an obscure area that nobody bothered to check.</p>
<p>In contrast, genocide remains a live issue, and a big rhetorical strategy of mass murderers is to deny that they&#8217;ve done it, or to claim that they&#8217;ve done it in self-defense.  So fighting false historical revisionism is a good thing to do, I&#8217;d say.  And, of course people get &#8220;really really upset&#8221; by Holocaust deniers:  to have your relatives killed, and then have people trying to get their killers off the hook, yes, that&#8217;s horrible.</p>
<p>Regarding the HIV/Aids thing:  Duesberg&#8217;s writings give me the impression that he enjoys pissing people off.  I&#8217;m not surprised that, yes, he succeeds at this task.  I don&#8217;t think that people responding, perhaps intemperately, to a provocation is comparable to the flinging of racial slurs at people who are just minding their own business.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: seth</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355679</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355679</guid>
					<description>"Solely for the comedic content"? &lt;strong&gt;Solely&lt;/strong&gt;? Care to comment on this article?

Dennis Mangan, A case report of niacin in the treatment of restless legs syndrome, Medical Hypotheses, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 30 June 2009, ISSN 0306-9877, DOI: 10.1016/j.mehy.2009.05.048.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6WN2-4WN1YJS-1/2/5492c7af920b9b39946d3166687ebce5)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Solely for the comedic content&#8221;? <strong>Solely</strong>? Care to comment on this article?</p>
<p>Dennis Mangan, A case report of niacin in the treatment of restless legs syndrome, Medical Hypotheses, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 30 June 2009, ISSN 0306-9877, DOI: 10.1016/j.mehy.2009.05.048.<br />
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6WN2-4WN1YJS-1/2/5492c7af920b9b39946d3166687ebce5)
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: rich</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355616</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355616</guid>
					<description>The real tragedy here is that the aidstruth people didn't recognize the journal 'medical hypotheses' for what it is; namely, EXACTLY the journal Deusberg should be publishing in.  I'm a regular reader of their abstracts, solely for comedic content.  The regular articles hypothesizing why one testicle hangs lower than the other are my favorites!  the journal is kind of crappy, deusberg's ideas are kind of crappy.  its really a match made in heaven!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real tragedy here is that the aidstruth people didn&#8217;t recognize the journal &#8216;medical hypotheses&#8217; for what it is; namely, EXACTLY the journal Deusberg should be publishing in.  I&#8217;m a regular reader of their abstracts, solely for comedic content.  The regular articles hypothesizing why one testicle hangs lower than the other are my favorites!  the journal is kind of crappy, deusberg&#8217;s ideas are kind of crappy.  its really a match made in heaven!
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: seth</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355583</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355583</guid>
					<description>Andrew, there are many differences between criticizing Ranjit Chandra, as Saul Sternberg and I did, and criticizing holocaust deniers. Here's one of them: the information value. Whereas &gt;99% of the world believed Chandra, who had received the Order of Canada, I'd guess that &#60;1% of the world believes holocaust deniers. Whatever the exact percentage, it is very low. If holocaust denial got serious traction, I'd agree with you that it is worth pointing out the problems. But it never has so the inflamed passions, in my opinion, are unwise.

It's not my use of "scientific" I'm talking about; it's how AIDSTruth.org uses it. They plainly use it as a way of placing themselves above other people, the way a thousand derogatory terms are used. It doesn't fit the definition of "derogatory", of course,  but it is used to the same effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, there are many differences between criticizing Ranjit Chandra, as Saul Sternberg and I did, and criticizing holocaust deniers. Here&#8217;s one of them: the information value. Whereas >99% of the world believed Chandra, who had received the Order of Canada, I&#8217;d guess that &lt;1% of the world believes holocaust deniers. Whatever the exact percentage, it is very low. If holocaust denial got serious traction, I&#8217;d agree with you that it is worth pointing out the problems. But it never has so the inflamed passions, in my opinion, are unwise.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not my use of &#8220;scientific&#8221; I&#8217;m talking about; it&#8217;s how AIDSTruth.org uses it. They plainly use it as a way of placing themselves above other people, the way a thousand derogatory terms are used. It doesn&#8217;t fit the definition of &#8220;derogatory&#8221;, of course,  but it is used to the same effect.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355559</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355559</guid>
					<description>@Andrew,

There's a difference between people who intentionally deceive, and people who are trying to do honest investigation into (in this case) an historical event. Some of them are intentionally misleading, and in that case, it's probably warranted to get upset by what they're doing. Some are not - they believe rather they *they* are being misled (and they believe that this explains why people aren't allowed to investigate it freely, are imprisoned for questioning the official narrative, and so on).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andrew,</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a difference between people who intentionally deceive, and people who are trying to do honest investigation into (in this case) an historical event. Some of them are intentionally misleading, and in that case, it&#8217;s probably warranted to get upset by what they&#8217;re doing. Some are not - they believe rather they *they* are being misled (and they believe that this explains why people aren&#8217;t allowed to investigate it freely, are imprisoned for questioning the official narrative, and so on).
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Andrew Gelman</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355377</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355377</guid>
					<description>Seth:  Do you really think it's strange that people "get really really upset" by Holocaust denial?  Look--you got really really upset by some dude in Canada who published obscure papers on fake nutritional experiments.  Sure, the guy shouldn't have done it, but it's pretty minor.   If you can be upset by that, how can you be surprised that someone can be upset when people minimize or deny the killing of millions of people?  Science is important--I'm glad you've spent time exposing scientific fraud--but history is important too.  If misrepresentation of major historical events doesn't bother you, fine, but to call that "intolerance"--well, that's just silly.  The next step would be to call mathematicians intolerant for not allowing mathematical mavericks to put the "2+2=5 theory" in math journals and algebra textbooks.

I also don't think the word "scientific" is really comparable to the so-called N-word (or even to the much milder F-word).  But maybe you use the word "scientific" in a different way than other people do!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth:  Do you really think it&#8217;s strange that people &#8220;get really really upset&#8221; by Holocaust denial?  Look&#8211;you got really really upset by some dude in Canada who published obscure papers on fake nutritional experiments.  Sure, the guy shouldn&#8217;t have done it, but it&#8217;s pretty minor.   If you can be upset by that, how can you be surprised that someone can be upset when people minimize or deny the killing of millions of people?  Science is important&#8211;I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;ve spent time exposing scientific fraud&#8211;but history is important too.  If misrepresentation of major historical events doesn&#8217;t bother you, fine, but to call that &#8220;intolerance&#8221;&#8211;well, that&#8217;s just silly.  The next step would be to call mathematicians intolerant for not allowing mathematical mavericks to put the &#8220;2+2=5 theory&#8221; in math journals and algebra textbooks.</p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t think the word &#8220;scientific&#8221; is really comparable to the so-called N-word (or even to the much milder F-word).  But maybe you use the word &#8220;scientific&#8221; in a different way than other people do!
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: seth</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355031</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10/24/the-campaign-against-medical-hypotheses/#comment-355031</guid>
					<description>Mac, I believe everybody needs bacteria in their food just the same way everyone needs Vitamin C in their food. Just as Vitamin C cures everyone with scurvy  . . . etc. There is nobody for whom Vitamin C makes scurvy worse.

Specific applications always introduce variance. Although Vitamin C cures all scurvy, some fruits may have less Vitamin C than others, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mac, I believe everybody needs bacteria in their food just the same way everyone needs Vitamin C in their food. Just as Vitamin C cures everyone with scurvy  . . . etc. There is nobody for whom Vitamin C makes scurvy worse.</p>
<p>Specific applications always introduce variance. Although Vitamin C cures all scurvy, some fruits may have less Vitamin C than others, etc.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>
