Comments on: More Black-and-White Thinking http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/ Self-Experimentation, Scientific Method, the Shangri-La Diet, etc. Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:57:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: Model Train Scale http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-369704 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:31:38 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-369704 Nice blog dude, but am I the only one having some problems with the interface i don't know if it is because i'm using a old version of Opera! Nice blog dude, but am I the only one having some problems with the interface i don’t know if it is because i’m using a old version of Opera!

]]> by: Eric http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362271 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:56:21 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362271 I'm also living in The Netherlands, and I do see a problem with Islam, and a certain percentage of the Moroccan people. But these things are not that related as some might think. The larges group in Islam, Sunni, is a quite 'rigid' from, as Wilders describes when he indicates "there is no moderate Islam". This form gives people a set of laws and a book that give them mandate to kill non-believers, start war or commit terrorist acts, as the laws and the book is the word from God. There are moderate muslims, but they are seen as non-true-believers in the eyes of some very strict muslims. There was a intern from Pakistan at the company I worked for last year. He was a muslim, but was more geared towards the Sufism stream of the Islam. It's a more mystical-ascetic form of Islam, and during our conversations, I thought many concepts were almost closer to Buddhism than the Sufism version of Islam. I do not have any problems with most people that are muslim. Most are fairly moderate and just live their lives in society. Strict (Sunni) Islam thought is scary, just as scary as strict Christian thoughts, like the Dutch political SGP, a orthodox protestant political party (no woman could have party membership before the year 2006). 'The Moroccan problem' is something else. Ok, most Moroccans probably are muslim, al least they consider themselves muslim, but might not behave as such. Coming up with "nice people that speak Dutch" does not make a huge impression on me. The percentage of criminal Moroccans is 17 times as high as the percentage of criminal Dutch (year 2006), in some regions this number is even higher. This is not because the Dutch have a problem with foreigners, but it's a problem in some specific etnic groups. When I worked at Philips, on our campus I worked with people from Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, UK, Spain, France, Romania, Denmark, Finland, Russia, Belarus, Pakistan, India, China, and Singapore that were living or studying in The Netherlands. Dutch companies do not have any problems with people with other cultural background, but you have to put in some effort. Behave well, study, get good grades, work hard to earn your cash, and you will make it just like anyone else. But if you don't study, don't get your grades, dress like a rapper, and behave and communicate like a criminal, people will treat you like one. It's not because of your parents' cultural background, it's because you and your friends thought you did not have a chance, so you did not invest, so in the end you indeed are not going to set that chances. A self fulfilling prophecy. I've seen the same thing happen to Dutch 'natives'. Why study and work 40+ hrs a week for someone else when you can make money yourself going in the illegal drug business? Ok, I do believe it was easier for me to get support from friends when I was going to do a study in electronics and software. But do not blame it on the fact that your (grand)parents being from Morocco, you probably have to blame it on lack of support from friends and family... I’m also living in The Netherlands, and I do see a problem with Islam, and a certain percentage of the Moroccan people. But these things are not that related as some might think. The larges group in Islam, Sunni, is a quite ‘rigid’ from, as Wilders describes when he indicates “there is no moderate Islam”. This form gives people a set of laws and a book that give them mandate to kill non-believers, start war or commit terrorist acts, as the laws and the book is the word from God. There are moderate muslims, but they are seen as non-true-believers in the eyes of some very strict muslims.

There was a intern from Pakistan at the company I worked for last year. He was a muslim, but was more geared towards the Sufism stream of the Islam. It’s a more mystical-ascetic form of Islam, and during our conversations, I thought many concepts were almost closer to Buddhism than the Sufism version of Islam. I do not have any problems with most people that are muslim. Most are fairly moderate and just live their lives in society. Strict (Sunni) Islam thought is scary, just as scary as strict Christian thoughts, like the Dutch political SGP, a orthodox protestant political party (no woman could have party membership before the year 2006).

‘The Moroccan problem’ is something else. Ok, most Moroccans probably are muslim, al least they consider themselves muslim, but might not behave as such. Coming up with “nice people that speak Dutch” does not make a huge impression on me. The percentage of criminal Moroccans is 17 times as high as the percentage of criminal Dutch (year 2006), in some regions this number is even higher. This is not because the Dutch have a problem with foreigners, but it’s a problem in some specific etnic groups.

When I worked at Philips, on our campus I worked with people from Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, UK, Spain, France, Romania, Denmark, Finland, Russia, Belarus, Pakistan, India, China, and Singapore that were living or studying in The Netherlands. Dutch companies do not have any problems with people with other cultural background, but you have to put in some effort. Behave well, study, get good grades, work hard to earn your cash, and you will make it just like anyone else. But if you don’t study, don’t get your grades, dress like a rapper, and behave and communicate like a criminal, people will treat you like one. It’s not because of your parents’ cultural background, it’s because you and your friends thought you did not have a chance, so you did not invest, so in the end you indeed are not going to set that chances. A self fulfilling prophecy. I’ve seen the same thing happen to Dutch ‘natives’. Why study and work 40+ hrs a week for someone else when you can make money yourself going in the illegal drug business?

Ok, I do believe it was easier for me to get support from friends when I was going to do a study in electronics and software. But do not blame it on the fact that your (grand)parents being from Morocco, you probably have to blame it on lack of support from friends and family…

]]> by: bgc http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362258 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:58:44 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362258 Well, let's not use such second-order quibbling to avoid discussion of the primary aspect of the situation - which is an historically-unprecedented population displacement currently being implemented by the European elites, probably motivated by their own cultural guilt and self-loathing: http://www.spsw.ox.ac.uk/fileadmin/documents/pdf/WP33_Third_Demographic_Transition.pdf Well, let’s not use such second-order quibbling to avoid discussion of the primary aspect of the situation - which is an historically-unprecedented population displacement currently being implemented by the European elites, probably motivated by their own cultural guilt and self-loathing:

http://www.spsw.ox.ac.uk/fileadmin/documents/pdf/WP33_Third_Demographic_Transition.pdf

]]> by: david http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362243 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:50:03 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362243 "My black friends in NYC still have difficulty hailing a cab (and not because their thumbs don’t work)–even from black taxi drivers." This is clearly not an example of white establishment racism, since practically no American born whites work as taxi drivers. In fact, in Chicago and Minneapolis, 10-20% of cab drivers are Somalis. “My black friends in NYC still have difficulty hailing a cab (and not because their thumbs don’t work)–even from black taxi drivers.”

This is clearly not an example of white establishment racism, since practically no American born whites work as taxi drivers. In fact, in Chicago and Minneapolis, 10-20% of cab drivers are Somalis.

]]> by: Anthony http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362207 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:20:31 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362207 @Seth, Right, but he's a politician, and he's utilizing political rhetoric. He's being alarmist in order to rouse Dutch people to action. It defeats the purpose to be nuanced and subtle. @Seth,

Right, but he’s a politician, and he’s utilizing political rhetoric. He’s being alarmist in order to rouse Dutch people to action. It defeats the purpose to be nuanced and subtle.

]]> by: seth http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362157 Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:02:46 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362157 True, he is criticizing the -ism. And the -ism is an example of black-and-white thinking, yes. So describing it in black-and-white terms could be said to merely be accurate. But I keep coming back to the idea that Wilders wouldn't care about the details of Islam if he didn't see it among Dutch residents. If he wants to criticize Muslim extremists in Holland, fine. But then he should describe their behavior, not abstract ideology. That would be a far more complicated argument. He is badly simplifying here -- not simplifying Islam but simplifying the connection between religion and behavior. True, he is criticizing the -ism. And the -ism is an example of black-and-white thinking, yes. So describing it in black-and-white terms could be said to merely be accurate. But I keep coming back to the idea that Wilders wouldn’t care about the details of Islam if he didn’t see it among Dutch residents. If he wants to criticize Muslim extremists in Holland, fine. But then he should describe their behavior, not abstract ideology. That would be a far more complicated argument. He is badly simplifying here — not simplifying Islam but simplifying the connection between religion and behavior.

]]> by: Chris http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362090 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:55:03 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362090 i still think you are unfair to Wilders. There is a distinction between the "-ism" and the individual. He is criticizing the ism. His black and white thinking is with respect to the ism, not the individuals. He accepts that there may be moderate individuals. i still think you are unfair to Wilders. There is a distinction between the “-ism” and the individual. He is criticizing the ism. His black and white thinking is with respect to the ism, not the individuals. He accepts that there may be moderate individuals.

]]> by: seth http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362076 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:18:05 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362076 What is meant by juxtaposing these two quotes? One is an example of black-and-white thinking, the other isn't. My friend makes distinctions, doesn't see everyone as the same. That's why her comment isn't black-and-white thinking. Wilders grants that Muslims vary ("There may be moderate Muslims") but goes on to dismiss that variation by ignoring it. What is meant by juxtaposing these two quotes? One is an example of black-and-white thinking, the other isn’t. My friend makes distinctions, doesn’t see everyone as the same. That’s why her comment isn’t black-and-white thinking. Wilders grants that Muslims vary (”There may be moderate Muslims”) but goes on to dismiss that variation by ignoring it.

]]> by: Robert Reis http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362044 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:25:01 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362044 As a former cabbie in Chicago, let me point out that black cabbie frequently refuse to pick up black customers. Too many cabbies are robbed and killed when they make this mistake. As a former cabbie in Chicago, let me point out that black cabbie frequently refuse to pick up black customers. Too many cabbies are robbed and killed when they make this mistake.

]]> by: Hatcher http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362000 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:30:05 +0000 http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/15/more-black-and-white-thinking/#comment-362000 I'm not sure what is meant by juxtaposing these quotes. The first seems to say - Islam beckons problems, whether there are moderate Moslems or not. The second basically says Moslems are discriminated against in Dutch society. Seth, do you put these up there as 2 alternative explanations for Moslem violence in the Netherlands? I suppose both could be characterized as black and white thinking, and perhaps some combination explanation is better. But the target of violence, for example Theo Van Gogh, was chosen clearly for reasons related to the first quote; and secondly, the perpetrators of such violence are very often highly educated successful Moslems (for example, the train bombing in UK orchestrated by doctors). These are hardly the most oppressed. I’m not sure what is meant by juxtaposing these quotes. The first seems to say - Islam beckons problems, whether there are moderate Moslems or not. The second basically says Moslems are discriminated against in Dutch society. Seth, do you put these up there as 2 alternative explanations for Moslem violence in the Netherlands? I suppose both could be characterized as black and white thinking, and perhaps some combination explanation is better. But the target of violence, for example Theo Van Gogh, was chosen clearly for reasons related to the first quote; and secondly, the perpetrators of such violence are very often highly educated successful Moslems (for example, the train bombing in UK orchestrated by doctors). These are hardly the most oppressed.

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