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	<title>Comments on: Gatekeeper Syndrome</title>
	<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/</link>
	<description>Self-Experimentation, Scientific Method, the Shangri-La Diet, etc.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Darrin Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362533</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362533</guid>
					<description>Maybe you'll nuance this a bit in time? (black-and-white, mmmm?) ;-)

I'm curious enough about self experimentation to read about others' results, even try out some of their finds, but not enough to invest time measuring every day.

I'm curious enough about Deming's methods and Lean to read library books and popular bookstore books about the subject, but not enough to pay $40 or $hundreds for more expensive training materials.

I was really curious about the technical details of creating a story. I was half tempted to try and scrounge up $600 and airfare for McKee's seminar. Lucky for me, I found he authored a bookstore priced book. That was one of my best finds last year. Story is a fabulous read.

Note, I'm a computer programmer. I've made a habit of trying to study outside my field and it's amazing what I've found. Here's _why_ agile works, according to Deming. Here's what Lean manufacturers do. Did you know that "waterfall" never worked anywhere? Anywhere? We didn't "borrow" it from anywhere. No one does it and sees it work.

So I'm definitely living out the curious thing, but I have my limits.

Your professor friends who don't attend each others' talks are truly missing out on half the excitement of their jobs. You get go to the presenter and breathlessly tell them how what they just said relates to your field, or even the other way around. Did you know ... ?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe you&#8217;ll nuance this a bit in time? (black-and-white, mmmm?) <img src='http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious enough about self experimentation to read about others&#8217; results, even try out some of their finds, but not enough to invest time measuring every day.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious enough about Deming&#8217;s methods and Lean to read library books and popular bookstore books about the subject, but not enough to pay $40 or $hundreds for more expensive training materials.</p>
<p>I was really curious about the technical details of creating a story. I was half tempted to try and scrounge up $600 and airfare for McKee&#8217;s seminar. Lucky for me, I found he authored a bookstore priced book. That was one of my best finds last year. Story is a fabulous read.</p>
<p>Note, I&#8217;m a computer programmer. I&#8217;ve made a habit of trying to study outside my field and it&#8217;s amazing what I&#8217;ve found. Here&#8217;s _why_ agile works, according to Deming. Here&#8217;s what Lean manufacturers do. Did you know that &#8220;waterfall&#8221; never worked anywhere? Anywhere? We didn&#8217;t &#8220;borrow&#8221; it from anywhere. No one does it and sees it work.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;m definitely living out the curious thing, but I have my limits.</p>
<p>Your professor friends who don&#8217;t attend each others&#8217; talks are truly missing out on half the excitement of their jobs. You get go to the presenter and breathlessly tell them how what they just said relates to your field, or even the other way around. Did you know &#8230; ?!
</p>
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		<title>by: Alex Chernavsky</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362521</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362521</guid>
					<description>Perhaps lack of curiosity is a factor here, but I think there are other reasons for the type of behavior that Seth described.  There is a book that sheds considerable light on this issue.  The book is called, "Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts", by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson.  Here is the Amazon page: http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/0156033909/.

This is the best book I've read in the last year.  You'll recognized relatives, friends, and co-workers on every page (and perhaps yourself, if you are honest).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps lack of curiosity is a factor here, but I think there are other reasons for the type of behavior that Seth described.  There is a book that sheds considerable light on this issue.  The book is called, &#8220;Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts&#8221;, by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson.  Here is the Amazon page: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/0156033909/." rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/0156033909/.</a></p>
<p>This is the best book I&#8217;ve read in the last year.  You&#8217;ll recognized relatives, friends, and co-workers on every page (and perhaps yourself, if you are honest).
</p>
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		<title>by: seth</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362495</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362495</guid>
					<description>"The more you standardize education, the more you drown our curiosity." Yes, I think that's exactly right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The more you standardize education, the more you drown our curiosity.&#8221; Yes, I think that&#8217;s exactly right.
</p>
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		<title>by: epistemocrat</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362484</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362484</guid>
					<description>I'll chime in as that (recent) pre-med student. The process does not foster curiosity. It punishes creativity and curiosity in many ways. To make it into and through medical school, residency, etc., students have to 'put their heads down' and just go (don't look left, right, or back)--it's the most effective way to jump through all the hoops set up by academia. Deviating too far from this path is counterproductive in terms of gaining admission, excelling on standardized tests, and receiving accolades. 

Unfortunately, this approach is flawed philosophically and does not necessarily translate into future physicians who practice medicine effectively, with insatiable curiosity. I had to create my own major to pursue my curiosity--that was not recommended in terms of looking good on medical school applications. I did it anyways; my path was much more valuable that way for me. When I elected to do my Master in Health Administration degree following undergraduate, instead of go straight to Medical School, on of my friends at UCSF Med School asked, "Why would you do that? Do you like studying that stuff?" Every medical decision is an economic/financial/policy decision, I thought, and I pursued my curiosity further. Experienced physicians praised me for foresight, but I still penalized myself in terms of jumping through the mainstream hoops most successfully.

Our educational system focuses on the known, not the unknown. Curiosity helps children interact with the unknown. After awhile of schooling that teaches them the grand importance of the known, that curiosity starts to go dormant, unfortunately.

The more you standardize education, the more you drown our curiosity.

Cheers,

Brent</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll chime in as that (recent) pre-med student. The process does not foster curiosity. It punishes creativity and curiosity in many ways. To make it into and through medical school, residency, etc., students have to &#8216;put their heads down&#8217; and just go (don&#8217;t look left, right, or back)&#8211;it&#8217;s the most effective way to jump through all the hoops set up by academia. Deviating too far from this path is counterproductive in terms of gaining admission, excelling on standardized tests, and receiving accolades. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, this approach is flawed philosophically and does not necessarily translate into future physicians who practice medicine effectively, with insatiable curiosity. I had to create my own major to pursue my curiosity&#8211;that was not recommended in terms of looking good on medical school applications. I did it anyways; my path was much more valuable that way for me. When I elected to do my Master in Health Administration degree following undergraduate, instead of go straight to Medical School, on of my friends at UCSF Med School asked, &#8220;Why would you do that? Do you like studying that stuff?&#8221; Every medical decision is an economic/financial/policy decision, I thought, and I pursued my curiosity further. Experienced physicians praised me for foresight, but I still penalized myself in terms of jumping through the mainstream hoops most successfully.</p>
<p>Our educational system focuses on the known, not the unknown. Curiosity helps children interact with the unknown. After awhile of schooling that teaches them the grand importance of the known, that curiosity starts to go dormant, unfortunately.</p>
<p>The more you standardize education, the more you drown our curiosity.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Brent
</p>
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		<title>by: Nathan Myers</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362447</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362447</guid>
					<description>My wife's grandmother spent a year on doses of Tegretol so strong she couldn't walk safely, prescribed for trigeminal facial neuralgia.  (She said it felt like electric shocks to her cheekbone.)  I finally persuaded her to talk to a specialist, and it turned out that a simple procedure, essentially inserting a spacer between two nerve fibers, completely cured the problem.  Her doctor hadn't been interested enough to find out about the treatment, or to refer to her to someone who knew, and just prescribed stronger doses.

My wife's grandfather died of prostate cancer, which it now turns out is caused by a virus, XMRV, the same virus that appears to cause Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.   For  a long time anyone presenting with CFS was referred to the psychiatrists.  Arguably what actually did him in was the radiation treatment, which entirely transformed him in just a few weeks; afterwards he was just waiting to die.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife&#8217;s grandmother spent a year on doses of Tegretol so strong she couldn&#8217;t walk safely, prescribed for trigeminal facial neuralgia.  (She said it felt like electric shocks to her cheekbone.)  I finally persuaded her to talk to a specialist, and it turned out that a simple procedure, essentially inserting a spacer between two nerve fibers, completely cured the problem.  Her doctor hadn&#8217;t been interested enough to find out about the treatment, or to refer to her to someone who knew, and just prescribed stronger doses.</p>
<p>My wife&#8217;s grandfather died of prostate cancer, which it now turns out is caused by a virus, XMRV, the same virus that appears to cause Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.   For  a long time anyone presenting with CFS was referred to the psychiatrists.  Arguably what actually did him in was the radiation treatment, which entirely transformed him in just a few weeks; afterwards he was just waiting to die.
</p>
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		<title>by: seth</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362397</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362397</guid>
					<description>Andy, because young children are curious. All of them. In a world without schools, that's how you learn. That's the first reason. The second reason is that there are examples where a facility that isn't used or encouraged or rewarded goes away. The obvious example is language, where distinction not used in the language are no longer heard. A less obvious example is the urge to decorate. For a long time in Communist Croatia, to decorate your house was forbidden. When Communist control subsided, it took a long time for the urge to come back.

Aaron, I found my Berkeley students were intensely curious about stuff related to what they wanted to do after they graduated, like be a nurse.  But yeah, I remember when  I was a grad student at Brown, a lot of the students in my statistics section (I was a TA) couldn't see the point of anything that wasn't going to be on the test. 

I think it's normal to be interested in stuff related to what you do for a living and not be interested in other stuff but what these pain doctors seem to be saying to the Taylor-Schotts is what they do for a living isn't alleviate pain but make money. Since mirror therapy doesn't involve them making money, they're not interested in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy, because young children are curious. All of them. In a world without schools, that&#8217;s how you learn. That&#8217;s the first reason. The second reason is that there are examples where a facility that isn&#8217;t used or encouraged or rewarded goes away. The obvious example is language, where distinction not used in the language are no longer heard. A less obvious example is the urge to decorate. For a long time in Communist Croatia, to decorate your house was forbidden. When Communist control subsided, it took a long time for the urge to come back.</p>
<p>Aaron, I found my Berkeley students were intensely curious about stuff related to what they wanted to do after they graduated, like be a nurse.  But yeah, I remember when  I was a grad student at Brown, a lot of the students in my statistics section (I was a TA) couldn&#8217;t see the point of anything that wasn&#8217;t going to be on the test. </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s normal to be interested in stuff related to what you do for a living and not be interested in other stuff but what these pain doctors seem to be saying to the Taylor-Schotts is what they do for a living isn&#8217;t alleviate pain but make money. Since mirror therapy doesn&#8217;t involve them making money, they&#8217;re not interested in it.
</p>
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		<title>by: Aaron Blaisdell</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362380</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362380</guid>
					<description>@Andy, There may be some truth to what you say. I try to spark curiosity in the pre-med students taking my seminar in Animal Cognition. Usually a few of the 20-30 students show lasting curiosity week after week. The rest don't show much expression so I don't know what they're actually thinking. Perhaps just what will be on the next quiz or test so that they can study to get an A in the course. Same with my comparative psychology course which usually enrolls about 80-100 students, most pre-med psychobiology majors. a handful will show genuine interest and ask intelligent (by which I mean creative and interested) questions, but a good majority of the students hardly make a peep in class. Of course absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence (of creativity or interest), but I know where I'll bet my money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andy, There may be some truth to what you say. I try to spark curiosity in the pre-med students taking my seminar in Animal Cognition. Usually a few of the 20-30 students show lasting curiosity week after week. The rest don&#8217;t show much expression so I don&#8217;t know what they&#8217;re actually thinking. Perhaps just what will be on the next quiz or test so that they can study to get an A in the course. Same with my comparative psychology course which usually enrolls about 80-100 students, most pre-med psychobiology majors. a handful will show genuine interest and ask intelligent (by which I mean creative and interested) questions, but a good majority of the students hardly make a peep in class. Of course absence of evidence isn&#8217;t necessarily evidence of absence (of creativity or interest), but I know where I&#8217;ll bet my money.
</p>
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		<title>by: Andy McKenzie</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362359</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:30:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362359</guid>
					<description>Seth, instead of assuming that all of these things (med school, college, doing conventional research) reduces or "beats out" creativity, why not just make the simpler assumption that most people just don't have this curiosity in the first place? It didn't help them get there, but it probably wouldn't have hurt either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, instead of assuming that all of these things (med school, college, doing conventional research) reduces or &#8220;beats out&#8221; creativity, why not just make the simpler assumption that most people just don&#8217;t have this curiosity in the first place? It didn&#8217;t help them get there, but it probably wouldn&#8217;t have hurt either.
</p>
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		<title>by: dilys</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362352</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/11/17/gatekeeper-syndrome/#comment-362352</guid>
					<description>Just one more iteration -- a friend's brother, after about a year on the Paleolithic Diet, had a blood test in which the tech and the doctor agreed they had never seen such high scores of "good cholesterol."

Neither one was interested in what he was doing that might have caused this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just one more iteration &#8212; a friend&#8217;s brother, after about a year on the Paleolithic Diet, had a blood test in which the tech and the doctor agreed they had never seen such high scores of &#8220;good cholesterol.&#8221;</p>
<p>Neither one was interested in what he was doing that might have caused this.
</p>
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